Can Eco-Anxiety Be Good?

0:05 Sara Pawlikowska

Hello everyone. Welcome to Podcast. My name is Sara Pawlikowska. I'm the co-founder at And today my guest is Oliver Dauert, who is the biodiversity Builder and the founder at Wildya and Wild business Mates. How are you doing today, Oliver?

0:20 Oliver Dauert

Good. Good. But hectic. Hectic what's currently going on in this world and trying to make the world a tiny bit better every day. It's it's tricky. We have a lot of stuff to do, huh?

0:30 Sara Pawlikowska

For sure. But before we dive into the stuff to make the world a better place I wanna ask you about your dog. I saw a very cute picture of the two of you.

0:42 Oliver Dauert

Her name is Maddy. And sometimes I find myself and just envy her when she's laying on the couch and just having the time of her life, and I'm like, oh, how can we turn this all around? And she's just like relaxing herself and having the time of her life, having beach walks, having foods sleeping, getting patted between. I think she is living a good life. So sometimes I find myself like, oh, would like to switch with her lives

1:08 Sara Pawlikowska

I'm assuming she's your main companion in discovering biodiversity.

1:12 Oliver Dauert

Yes, she is. She is I think especially animals that can teach us so much about, patience, finding joy in the simple things of life. Sometimes, like we play with a stick on the beach and she can just do that a thousand times and she has the same joy on her faces she did it for the first time. So I think there's a lot that we can learn from our furry companion. So yeah, definitely one of my best teachers in life. Yeah.

1:36 Sara Pawlikowska

First of all, I wanna ask you about your background a little bit. How did you get involved in biodiversity and sustainability?

1:44 Oliver Dauert

So I've been in love with nature and fascinated by it since I'm a child. Already. I was younger, I knew, or I started to learn more animal names than any other words, so I knew how to say like sea elephant or wildebeest or giraffe or whatever far before I could use the other basic words. And so yeah since young age I'm really much in love with it. I think one of the trigger points was probably The Lion King. It came out in 94, I think, and was my first movie I watched in the cinema and I was just like blown away by it. And since then, yeah, this kind of fascination just grew and grew. I think I learned more and more in my teenage times. I learned a bit that not everybody's sharing the same passion. And since then I was like realizing, okay yeah, we need to do like much more to turn this all around. I found myself in in the reflection that I got when I was in Australia took a year off. I realized that I think a lot of the damage that we're currently creating is coming from the economy and from the businesses that are behind. And so I thought the best way of how I can help nature is actually to start studying business so that I can understand how the wheel is currently spinning, how we can change it, and. How we can go from damaging to basically regeneration. And so I didn't take the classical route like a ecologist or just like studying biology and things like that. But I thought yeah let's try to by the business route. When I then had like my first work experience in the different companies, I just found myself as ah, we are not doing enough for biodiversity. And I was like, okay.I should d probably head up and do my own venture because at least in, in that regard, I can have like full control I can do as much for biodiversity as I possibly can, which is now a really nice feeling. Now I work 24/7 on biodiversity and try to bring the business world and biodiversity closer together.

3:45 Sara Pawlikowska

Oh, definitely the Lion King hits hard. I wanna ask you about your projects then. So can you tell me about Wildya and the Wild Business Mates?

3:56 Oliver Dauert

Yeah, exactly. So I work on two projects, but two very unequally. So Wildya is really like my my baby, my major project where I really put like my heart and my soul into this. And basically there, what we're trying to do is we try to help people with eco-anxiety to transform that into action. Health is something that is really close to my heart and I thought okay, if we have to find, let's say, business stream, or if we have to find a stream of like how we can get more finance towards nature and it has to be a business, then I thought at least the business should really serve people. so I thought like mental health is a really best way to how to do that. So what we do is we help people with their mental health, especially like eco anxiety focused. And then what we do is we take 15% from the revenue that we make. To actually protect and restore nature because we believe, like nature's our biggest inspiration,nature keeps us all alive. So it should also get like a chunk of the money that usually goes to, let's say, Google, Apple, and all the other kind of marketer and other businesses. Instead of going just to them, we should also spend that on nature. So that's, let's say Wildya. Wildya is like a moonshot project that needs a lot of time and a lot of resources and that doesn't go as quick as some other businesses. Everything is like right now bootstrapped. And in order to finance actually Wildya, what I do is I do business consulting for biodiversity companies and NGOs on the side. So that is Wild Business Mates, so basically, Wild Business Mates is paying right now for the expenses of Wildya. Just because Wildya yeah. It takes a bit more to build it. And Wild Business Mates was just like coming from that idea is that a lot of people in the biodiversity space, they are spot on when it comes to the problem. They're spot on when it comes to creating different solutions, what they sometimes really struggle with is the business part of things. So how can we promote our idea? How can we, just talk about idea in such a way that people actually understand it, that understand like how crucial it is and the solution that we provide and so on. And then obviously also to get like finance for realizing or scaling these kind of solutions and for these kind of, yeah, projects, you need business skills as any other. So I thought like I'm sitting on the business skills why not provide that to the companies and NGOs in need?

6:17 Sara Pawlikowska

I would love to talk about eco-anxiety a little bit more later on as well. But just as a side question, so what would you say is the best platform to connect with businesses who are also interested in sustainability and biodiversity? I.

6:31 Oliver Dauert

Yeah, so when you really want to connect with businesses, I think one of the first ways always to look out for is like online communities where already the people and businesses involved that do care. I think going for all the hardcore companies that are. Like long, still a long way from us. I think at first, surround yourself with companies that actually do care. So some of the communities that I use is, for example, the Green Tech Alliance. And there's a couple of others out there, like quite often It's like Slack groups or WhatsApp groups. Voyagers is another good one. And this just gives you a lot of energy because you feel like, okay, I'm not the only one that is actually caring about that. So there are these kind of communities out there. As soon as you type in or as soon as you get in touch with me, I'm happy to share you guys all the communities that I found in the last years. And then by now, when we really talk about biodiversity in nature, one cool thing that they actually launched is the TNFD. that's the task Force of financial disclosures, a nature related financial disclosure. Yeah. I suck at abbreviations, but basically what they have is like an entire website of like how businesses can understand the impact that they have on nature and how they can have a bit more positive impact in the future. And on that website, they also have, for example, pilot customers and that already indicated that they want to test this kind of framework that they came up with. So if you're looking for. Bigger companies actually collaborate on biodiversity, then I can definitely recommend you to check out the TNFD website because that's like where already 300 big companies are actually indicating that they want to do something for nature. So yeah.

8:21 Sara Pawlikowska

We talk about biodiversity a lot, there are different explanations but for you, what would you say that biodiversity is?

8:28 Oliver Dauert

Yeah. So if, I would start with a non-professional one. The one that means to me is life on earth. Yeah. If you really have to explain it to a child, then you would just say oh it's life on earth. So everything that basically that is alive and that joins this beautiful planet with us. If you then have to go in a really correct way and you're talking with people and they really wanna know more, then it's basically, consists of three things. So first we have the biodiversity, the diversity between the different species. So that's like you have an elephant and you have a mouse and you have a rabbit, and so say a different species. second part of biodiversity, and that's a lot of what people don't know, is actually genetic diversity. So how genetically diverse are the, let's say the elephants or bison? Why is that important? If a group of animals is not genetically diverse, then they can easily be gone in, in the future because of diseases and core. Because every genetically, all of them, they're really genetically almost the same. So meaning if there is something like what covid happened to us, but if the disease happens to them, then basically they can go extinct within the number of like years just because they're all the same. Really prominent example of that genetic diversity is a really big problem is, for example, the Tasmanian Devil. They have a disease right now and it's really hard to for them to actually get them recovered. So that's the second part. And the third part is ecosystem diversity. So especially in our media and in our public discussions, we talk about forest, which is amazing. They are really important, but they're not the only one. So you also have have the savanna and you have the ocean, and you have deserts, and you have all the different ecosystems that are also crucial and that have plenty of amazing animals and plants and fungi and bacteria and so on. That's the third component. So often we only talk about the different species as biodiversity, but actually the two other factors are also really crucial.

10:29 Sara Pawlikowska

So one of the more specific things that I wanted to ask you about is the role of indigenous people in rewilding and keeping the biodiversity.

10:39 Oliver Dauert

Yeah. Before I dive into this, also really important to note biodiversity. For example, first of all, I think the term is like very confusing. I. I think it really puts a bit of a barrier between people because it sounds like quite scientific, at least that's what I thought at the beginning. And I, at the beginning also thought it's only species biodiversity means like species diversity. So if you, if that is new to you, don't beat yourself up. Totally normal. Part of the kind of learning process now when it comes to indigenous people, obviously My big problematic is I grew up in Germany. I am a white male that kind of like tons of privileges that ended up me being here where I'm currently am and in Germany we almost don't have any intact wilderness anymore. So I can only talk about the things that I have so far, read and the things that I heard from. People that are working with indigenous communities and so on. So at least I see and what I heard and what I read about when it comes to this is that so far one thing is that we went quite a long way. From a lot of indigenous perspectives to where we currently are. Like in the global north, when you see, like in Northern America, when you see Europe, a lot of this has really gone like totally in the opposite direction of where usually like a lot of indigenous thoughts and like perspectives of the worlds and so on, how they are focusing. We are get like really disconnected from that. So we don't see nature as a part, for example, where we are in, but. In the global north, quite often we see it as Hey, nature's for us and we can just grab this and this and this. one of the first things I think that often is really missing in this entire conversation is like getting more perspectives from people that are not just in the global North, that are not just like a lot of influenced by, let's say capitalism that are influenced by the perspectives that we share. Often also really Christian dominated countries having other perspectives than that. That would be really fruitful right now. However when, I mean if you look at the COP there was just like a news letter article coming I think two weeks ago, something that in the next COP they even tried that there were not even women in the entire committee and. And so if you see that already that women are not included, then you can also imagine like how long the way still goes until we actually have indigenous communities really in this committees and in the decision making table. Because it's one thing to invite groups into these kind of events and participate, but it's another to really be on the decision making table and having a really strong voice and having something to say and making adjustments in the text and things like that as well. But again, that all comes from a place of just what I heard and what I read and so on. I haven't been at the COP, so super, super biased on the things that I consume so far. But indigenous people are very crucial because if we are looking at like where we still have like stronger indigenous communities there often really in the places where we still have some nature left there's some statistics that are saying that indigenous people are guarding 80% of biodiversity. Now that statistic comes from a research which is always debated and so on, but if we just take that as a rough number. 80% is a big amount. So if those people are the guardians of our remaining wild places, shouldn't they be much more involved in conservation? Shouldn't they have much more to say of like how to live side by side with elephants or jaguars and wolves and so on, shouldn't they be receiving financial compensation so that they can keep on guarding this place and not have to find other ways of income, like maybe using the wood that the tropical rainforest provides, or hunting some animals that. they need to just like to survive. Shouldn't. They get some rewards for being the guardians for that because in the end, if we have a biodiverse rich world, then it benefits all of us, no matter if you're on the global south, if you're in the global north and so on. And so I think people, as we are paid for. Doing our job. I think they should be paid for being such a great guardians. And then again big disclaimer, not a specialist on this topic. From the conversation that I had with people and yeah, that's my 2 cents on that.

15:12 Sara Pawlikowska

It sounds like this sort of movement of biodiversity, it's perhaps unintentionally, but become an elite environment

15:22 Oliver Dauert

yeah, because in the past there has been also like a lot of mistakes that have been done on conservation sites. Famously is to draw really strict borders around national parks and say okay, all of you people now need to move out. Even though people have been living there for like centuries and they can remember they've been maybe in that area and now they had to move out because, we wanted to protect these places where what we didn't get quite often, one is like the people were protecting that to begin with, and they actually are much more connected to that area than we could ever imagined. So I think that is like one, even, sadly, like a really prominent example is we even like created damage on the natural site in order to damage indigenous communities. So one of the most popular examples, or that's one of the most famous examples, is the American bison, where it was actually one of the major food sources of the indigenous communities there and the indigenous community that created trouble, so to say, for the American government. And what they started to do is they actually hunters to kill down all the bisons so that the, basically the food source the really important source of the indigenous community didn't exist anymore. To actually hurt the indigenous community leading to a lot of suffering and pain on the indigenous community. And at the same time. Obviously to the almost extinction of the American bison. So that is something that just shows like how much. Much better we need to do in the next decades to make up for all the past mistakes. Because now we can't change what we did. And when I say we, it's, I know it's not me, but often it comes down to global north perspectives. But we need to make up for a lot of the stuff that we did. And we built our wealth, especially in Europe. We built our wealth on a lot of things that we did wrong in the past. And so I think it's just about time that we, yeah, that we reshuffle a lot of, and payback and involve the people, that should be involved.

17:33 Sara Pawlikowska

Well said, just to shift gears a little bit, now, I wanna go back to the eco-anxiety. So what is eco-anxiety

17:41 Oliver Dauert

So Eco-anxiety put simple is if you are right now very much concerned of where we are heading. If the climate is starting to freak you out, rightfully if you're really concerned about like where our nature destruction is currently leading us, if you're really concerned about your own future, if you're really concerned about the future of the next generations. That is eco-anxiety. And so people have like different severities of that. So some people, they might be more concerned about the climate because they have been affected by wildfire. For some others they are maybe nostalgic because they're lost, like the forest where they're used to play in. for other people they see. Last week for example, there was this really famous polar bear picture going around the internet. Some people fear then like as soon as they see that. It just hits them and they get like a certain grief or they feel emotional that they maybe on their watch we're losing these kind of species. And so what can easily happen is that you start to freeze because you have the feeling there is nothing that you can do or you start to avoid the problem. So you just say okay, I'm just gonna delete, let's say all media outlets, or I delete all social media apps. But unfortunately it's not that easy just because you look the other way, or you exclude those. Unfortunately, a lot of the things won't go away. You can't just like fuel all your actions just by passion, I believe. I think a lot of actions can also be fueled by anger, anxiety by grief, and so on. And so we feel those things and because we feel those things that just show us how human we are and how concerned we are. So how can we maybe help people to. those feelings and make them as much of fuel as it is the passion, because it's awesome if you love nature as much as I do, as much as Sara does. But that's not the only motivator that can get you going and they can fuel the daily actions that you can maybe take in order to improve the world a bit. So yeah, that's my 2 cents on that. Yeah.

19:49 Sara Pawlikowska

So for anyone who's interested, there's a very nice quiz on the Wildya. If you wanna know whether you have eco anxiety and what kind of level you might be experiencing. I can disclose that I did take that quiz and I have a moderate eco-anxiety. so I think it's a good result given how interested I am in the topic, but do you see any certain patterns based on that quiz?

20:16 Oliver Dauert

Yeah. it is very interesting. One of the big discussions in a lot of research is that it only affects young. Like it mostly affects young people. That's where a lot of research has been done, which is also making sense because in the end, the younger generations have statistically speaking, a higher chance to live longer on this planet than let's say the older generations. However, what we at least see so far from the first result is that it's not it's actually quite diverse. It's a really mixed crowd. It's not just a. 18 or 19-year-old. It's actually also like the 40 year olds, the 50-year-old. It's not just people that is often also debated. Is it something like a rich people thing, is it like, okay, they live their rich life and then they feel bad about this? Anxieties maybe for the wealthy. so far we can also not see that. It's actually really diverse. So we have like people from all around the world that are doing this quiz because they see that their country is affected. And by now, let's be honest, there's almost like no country left where you didn't feel some effects of the climate crisis, or we didn't see like any nature destruction. So I think it also makes quite a lot of sense. But there was the beauty of this quiz to see actually. That's, yeah, it is really diverse. So I would say these two things, like eco anxiety is not just something that is happening for the young people. And second eco-anxiety is probably like a global global phenomena that will be even more confronted within the future than now, than what it currently is.

21:52 Sara Pawlikowska

I know that most of your work at Wildya is to help people cope with eco-anxiety. But what would you say is one thing that perhaps we can do to reduce that feeling just at home.

22:05 Oliver Dauert

Personally. I would say one of the first steps, and everybody can always do this is to learn a bit more about this. Maybe you never heard about eco-anxiety. Maybe it's the first time that you hear about this, or maybe you heard about the term but you actually never Googled it because out of sight, out of mind. One of the first things that I'll always recommend people to do is just learn a bit more. And I don't mean you have to download like 15 research papers and so on. No, but read like one blog article or open our app or yeah, as you said, do the quiz so that you can just understand a bit like, okay, where this kind of emotions like coming from and how do I actually feel about this? Am I affected? I think that's like number one is always look a bit inwards and learn a bit more about this. Number two, one of the things that I was trying to build first when we were sure that we are gonna focus on eco-anxiety. Is actually try to find other, like-minded people that have some, yeah, that face eco-anxiety as much as I do, or at least similarity or that are maybe also in different stages. But just like finding like-minded people because I didn't have them, I didn't even know that eco-anxiety was a thing I didn't know until 27. And I was always like, what's wrong with me? Why? Why is nobody else in my environment like this? Why is nobody caring? And I just didn't, it sounds really stupid, but it just never occurred to me that maybe other people feel like this too, and that is actually quite the normal feeling to be like concerned about this and that no matter like what you feel, there are some other people in this world. And so why we created then Equal Allies, which is a community where people can help one another because in the end. Everybody of us works like bit differently. We have different history, we have different experiences, we have different exposure. So that's why I say number two is try to find like your like-minded people because that will make everything like so much easier because as soon as you don't feel like you're the only person in this world that cares for the natural world. Then it all becomes like a, at least a bit easier. It's not make it easy, but it makes it a bit easier. And then the third part is like take action because taking action is, at least from all the research that I have read and that. Also, obviously I try to implement those kind of tips that I try to preach. I test them by myself at first. Like I'm always the Guinea pig. And one of the things that really helped me to battle my eco-anxiety and catalyze it, it was actually to take action. And that can be something really tiny. That can be really something like if you're currently eat meat the entire time, it can be like cutting meat out once a week, you can start with that and then you can move from there. It can be something like, Hey, I just take a look of if there are nature NGOs in my surrounding Yeah. But do some small step, some really tiny step. Don't try to, ah, no, I'm gonna become the next Greta Thunberg in the next three weeks. No, if you can of course go for it. But let's say 99% of us we can't do that in three weeks. Go out and take some action because as soon as you take some action first, it will become addictive. So you will take more action, you will take bigger action and so on. And second of all, it will also help you immensely with your mental health because maybe you stop easting the grilled steak at night is not going to change deforestation in Amazon from one to the other day. But if you do it, and if you do your bit. It will help you immensely stay sane. Yeah.

25:33 Sara Pawlikowska

I actually wanted to ask you about that journey of becoming vegetarian and then vegan. How was that for you? I.

25:40 Oliver Dauert

Yeah, I think it's tricky. Like anybody, I personally, I come from Germany and Germany is a quite a carnivore country, so yeah, people love to do the barbecues. People, almost like all the traditional dishes, you always have meat in it. There's not that much vegetarian options and so on. So I also grew up with a thinking of yeah, I need protein. I need to. Consume all this kind of meat. I think I was like, let's say 22 or 21 there was a bit this moment where I went to the supermarket and I don't know, depending on where you are, but we have like really massive supermarkets in Germany and so just the entire meat aisle was just like the size of where of other supermarkets. And I don't know what happened in this moment, but I just felt disgusted by it. so I told myself, okay, I always wanted to do it for the environment anyways, so let's just try one month without meat. And I tried it and I started to feel better. I started to feel less tired. I started to feel healthier. I started to feel more energetic. I started to feel better as we just talked about, like mentally. For me, it helped me a lot because I always felt a bit like a hypocrite. Like when I was eating tons of meat. And that was really not that good for my mental health. So that helped me immense. But then again, for example, after this one month, I went a bit back to eating some meat. At least occasionally, or then I spent some time in different countries where I was living, where again, it was really tricky to eat vegetarian diet and so on. So I even for me, it was not like a straight journey, which you would like to think ah, I stopped eating meat and from there on, I became vegan in four weeks. No, it was not that. It was like really like a. a, yeah. Twisted path and definitely not straightforward. But then I, the more I learned again about the topic, about the environmental damage, about the health benefits, if you switch to a vegan diet, the more I learned, the more I cut out things out of my diet. And so I started at first with beef, then I switched to like only cutting out like pork. I cut out, chicken, then I cut out fish later on after watching Seaspiracy. That was like my last okay, no, I can't eat sushi anymore. And then. Yeah. Now I, on this journey to cut out everything. I really only rarely consume like eggs. Rarely consume butter or like cheese. So now I'm really on this journey of yeah, try to become really like vegan. If it's possible, yeah. But there again, be kind to yourself. If you can start already, like cutting out, for example, meat at home or dairy at home, and if you only eat meat, let's say in the restaurants, that's already like a big step. And then yeah, take it step by step.

28:26 Sara Pawlikowska

Be kind to yourself. I like that. One last really big topic that I wanted to mention with you is the use of animals in research. 'cause I know it's a charged topic as well, but I'm curious, what are your thoughts on that?

28:40 Oliver Dauert

Yeah, no you definitely hit me with topics where I'm also not an expert. In general also, to be honest again, like entire disclaim on this there's a reason I come from business and I. I never really felt like an expert in anything. not even a business, to be honest. I would say I'm an expert, so I'm also a biodiversity expert. I'm not an expert of indigenous history and the challenges of like conservation. I'm also not an expert when it comes to research. So again, everything with just like my perspective, what I heard, my research my beliefs of what I've seen so far. And I don't say that they're right, but the first I think there is one really big problem that I have with research when it comes to taking animals is that one, is that often nature as a whole is not compensated for this. So we take this kind of single species or this kind of single individuals, and the least that we can do is to create some sort of financial scheme so that even if the single animals are not benefiting from it. At least hopefully the ecosystem will benefit from it. I know it sounds like quite rough and really messed up that, let's say maybe a monkey needs to die to keep the rainforest around. But if that at least would happen is that we would say, okay, we take monkeys because we need them for really famous research that is currently going on the AI connection to your brain, for that I'm pretty sure they're using monkeys. So as at least if they have to use animals for some research, if at least the company would need to create, I don't know, a huge chunk of this research budget to actually ensure that the ecosystem stays intact and that these monkeys, at least the others, they can keep on flourishing and can do their thing and that. That we can have them in the future around. that will already be like a massive step. So compensating nature as a whole for whenever we take something. And that might be really the single individual animal, but that can also be like extracting. things from plants or what a lot of people don't know. We, for example, the horseshoe crab, which we use a lot of the injection to cr like vaccines, like I think the covid vaccine. A lot of it was actually also like a component of the horseshoe crab. at least if nature would be compensated so that we can ensure that the population would keep on flourishing, protected, and hopefully restored and in a positive direction, that would be my, let's say, macro approach that I would love to see. The second I'm always a big fan of okay, what are things that we can switch relatively easy? So good examples of this. Do we really need animals for like lipstick or something? Is it necessary that we test, let's say lipstick or cosmetic products on. Animals debatable. Do we really need to take this? So have a look at all the different things where we currently, let's say use animals or, just take them in order to test certain things that, do we really need them? Do we need, really need them to test? And even bigger question, do we really need the product that we use them to test? Do we really need all this kind of makeups and so on to begin with what are we fueling here? So maybe a bigger topic that goes beyond this podcast, but so yeah, reflecting on do we really need the product and do we really need an animal in order to test our hypothesis of x, y, z? If we do those two things, I think there will already be like a big help. And then, and the third one. So if we can't avoid those two things, at least the bare minimum that we can do is at least create like an environment where the animal is not like in pain or where the animal is unnecessarily suffering. And at least ensure that, come on guys, if we are alright we don't wanna give them up to testing. We don't even wanna protect their home so that they at least their families can flourish, come out. The least thing that we can do is like to create like an environment where they're actually treated like another life form. Like just because it's not us doesn't mean that we can do whatever we want with them, especially because we don't know so much about nature. So if you take anything away from my entire rumbling is that I did in this podcast is like, we know so little about nature and so little about biodiversity, even though we are already studying it since decades, we know so little. So there's a lot of things that we just don't know. So when we say okay, yeah, but it's just a rat, or it's just like a mouse. It's just like a crow. We don't know a lot of things about, we still don't know a lot of things about them. We don't know how much they feel and so on. So let's just try to reflect a bit like, okay, if you would be here in this testing facility, how would you would like to be treated ideally go beyond that?

33:29 Sara Pawlikowska

That's a very nice takeaway from this podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. It was a real blast.

33:37 Oliver Dauert

No, thank you so much for giving me the opportunities. We went through various different topics. Again and that's like really important. I think in our modern society we quickly shame or we block having actually discussions and we just put people into certain boxes and rather than talking with one another, we just talk about one another or we cancel people. If people, for example, if things didn't resonate with you now in this conversation, or if you actually want to challenge something, then good. Let's talk about it. Because a lot of these kind of discussions that we just like tiptoed into where there's so much to explore, these are really tough discussions, but we can't pretend they're not there. They're like an elephant in the room. And we need to be able to talk about those things and we need to be. Okay, that people can make mistakes and that they from that. And that we need to do better and we need to listen, and we need to also listen to the past stories that hurt other people and that we need to sit down and we need to suck it up because it's just like what we did in the history. And from there we can do better, but just doesn't make sense to just talk about each other, put people in the boxes and like just talk, talking with one another about this because let's be honest, biodiversity, climate, all the big challenges that we face, even let's say if Germany would do a great job, even if the US would do a great job if a single country would do a great job or single community. We won't manage to turn the tide. What we really need to do is really collaboration and one thing to really collaborate is have an honest communication, even though maybe we won't always agree on it, or maybe we have different perspective, but it's really important that we listen and that we learn and that we challenge one another, and that we, yeah, build up the courage to do the things that needs to be done in order to get us to this wild planet that we need to, for the survival of our species and the survival of all the other species. Hopefully that was not too crazy. But yeah,

35:30 Sara Pawlikowska

Let's talk Oliver Dauert, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for talking to me today.

35:37 Oliver Dauert

Thank you Sara for taking the time